Need Advice from Moms of Spirited Children

Do you do activities with her one on one? Having three kids is hard I know, but each child should have individual time with a parent too. Does she do extra activities? She sounds pretty bored to me. Plus, I don't think you follow up on time outs. Sending her to her room is not a time out. Corner time is the solution. Unless you are 5 feet tall, an 8 eight year old girl is not "too heavy". My son is about 85 pounds, and if he doesn't go to time outs, I take him there myself. Hitting is definately a corner time time out! I think you are making excuses.

Find a good psychologist/ therapyst. From what you are saying, this isn't all about your daughter. This has something to do with the relationship the two of you have.

That said, it sounds like you need help today ...

I looked at your post again, and found four specific things:

1. hitting brother
2. calling names
3. failure to leave when told to
4. not getting in car

First, I am a bit strict about how my children treat each other because my kids are five years apart and the size means someone could get really hurt. I also have two spirited strong willed, hyper kids, so I have been here. My daugher who is the oldest was barred from the family room becase of hitting her brother, until she could show me appropriate behavior in other settings. She was not allowed in the same room with her brother. This is an important conversation to have privately and when everyone is calm. I took my daughter for ice cream and while we walked home, I asked her what she thinks I would do if someone repeatedly came into our house and hit her. She said that I would stop them. I said you are right. It is my job to keep you safe, because I am the Mom and I love you. Now, I have a job to keep your brother safe too. Then I told her: you are the person coming into my house and hitting my child, and I cannot let you do that. So until you can show me that you can behave you are not allowed in the same room with your brother. Do you understand? So, if your brother is in the family room, may you enter the room? wait for the "no." If your homework is in the family room, with your brother are you allowed to go in and get it? wait for the "no." Tell her this is the rule of the house, until she can show you that she can treat the rest of the family respectfully. If she is anything like my daughter, she try to argue, negotiate and avoid answering the questions. Just keep repeating it, and ignor her remarks (as much as you can) stay focused on the goal of protecting your son. This will take awhile. (If you are afraid she might run away, don't do it outside. You might need a strong guy around since you said you cannot physcially handle her. Plan, think ahead, and do your best to remain calm. It is really hard.)

I did this to my daughter. It took her about a week, but then I had my kids trained by the time they were 2 if I said go to your room, they went. There was no gray area there. It may take your daughter a bit longer, particularly if she is bright.

Next, and I am serious here, call the boys and girls town hotline. These people know how to deal with kids like this. She isn't your only child, and what she is doing is abuseing the rest of the family. You have to think about protecting your other children.

I had a sister like this, turned out she was bipolar, my parents didn't do much, and I still have trouble sleeping at night because of all the nutty stuff that happened in our house. I have had at least one professional tell my I have post tramatic stress syndrom because of all the nonsense.

Lastly, when my son wouldn't leave when it was time to go, and when he refused to get in the car when I said. He didn't get to go. Honest, when my son was two he and I didn't go anyway, except doctor's appointments because I couldn't trust him to leave and get in the car when I said. I went food shopping at night after my husband got home from work. My daughter could come, and when my son begged to come. I (as calmly as possible) told he wasn't allowed because I couldn't trust him to listen to me. When he could demonstrate good listen then he could go, but first he had to demonstrate good listen to my satisfaction. I also purposely schedule a few babysitters (who were in on it) and arranged from the rest of the family to go bowling, mini-golf -- stuff like that. He got left home because I couldn't trust him. He begged and I explained. Being left out is real punishment! I think it took three weeks, and then I gave him another try. From then on, I just tell him: "if I cannot trust you to listen when we are out, I guess you just wont get to come next time." It works like a charm, still, three years later. It was a really rought couple of weeks for me. I hated doing it, but strong willed kids require creative solutions, and they need to know you are in charge! They really do need to know that.

Best of Luck.

My friend had great success with this book and her 8-year-old.

The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child

You can check it out on Amazon. It's a very detailed reward system but worked great for them.

There's an essay on Mamasource today about "persistent" children written by Ellen Galinsky. There may be some ideas there. Good luck.

I agree that it's not ADHD. Our son has it and without medication, he has problems both at home and at school. It's not something that happens just in one place. So, you're absolutely right there.

What I can recommend is seeking help from medical professionals. Consider meeting with a behavioral therapist, who can give you some really great strategies for dealing with your specific situations. We do this is as part of our son's ADHD treatment and it's been helpful. You'll get some strategies not available in books, customized to your daughter's specific needs and problems. We read all of the "spirited child" books, too, and didn't get anywhere, but got some inventive ideas from the therapist that did work. Talking to an expert can be really reassuring, too, that you're taking the right steps.

Good luck!

This sounds quite a bit about my daughter, though she is 4 1/2. Absolutly no punishment/consequence or positive reinforcement worked from the time she started walking at 8 months. Until recently at least.

We started throwing things away. It took some time to figure out the best method and types of things to do it with. The key is that no matter what it has to stay in the trash! Take some time to go through her stuff and get an idea of things that you are comfortable with getting rid of and will still have an impact. We tend to do new but cheap things. Dollar store, mcdonalds toys, garage sale stuff from grandma, or toys that are individual toys, candy, special snacks or drinks. Not sets, or thing of great value, things that if she does not have will hinder constructive playing in the future.

This method also gives her a minute or two before the punishment is complete to stop(the item making to the door) and realize what she is doing, get out of the feeling she is having at the moment, and make a more focused decision on whether she will obey or not. Sometimes tough the object gets thrown away no matter what if the action/behavior is major.

It has also helped my stress level. I don't have to fight to get something done, or get upset and drained. I explain what will happen, what is happening , why, and that is it. NO other discussion, or raising of voice. I can maintain my patience for those 1-2 minutes it takes to complete the punishment and then it is done, whether or not she got the deserved consequence or chose to obey. When she is upset after I say I'm sorry that you did this, or chose to do that, and that was the consequence and ignore anything else reguarding her feelings about the punishment. Unless of course she does something in realiation other than, crying, obejecting, general being upset. Then she loses something else.

It was very hard at first, she fought us all the way out the door. That got her a warning and possibly something else being thrown away. Sometimes, we just didnt want to have to stop what we are doing, go find something, go outside to the gabage can and such. But her behavior started to really change once we became consistant through the hard or inconveinient times.
Some practical tips are that we keep flip flops and a robe by the back door, as well as a garbage can right outside the door.

Also something to remember that I have found very helpful with her. In my child psychology classes we learned that before a child will eliminate or change a certain behavior they will typically get worse before getting completely better. Kind of like a last ditch effort of their will to resist the change that they are experiencing.
I hope you find something that works for your whole family's sake. This eventually helped so much with ours. She now goes several days at a time without anything gtting thrown away.

Do you do anything one on one with your daughter? I know it's hard with other children, but my daughter sounds a lot like yours, only younger, and having "special time" has helped a lot in our house. We do her "special time" no matter what the days behavior has been. It's not always stuff were we leave the house, but it's just the two of us for 20 or 30 minutes. You may need a longer time b/c your daughter is older, but she can help you decide what you do. Sit down and plan it out each week with her. We cook something, make something, watch a cartoon, or I've even had her help me clean. She's about to be 3 so she doesn't know better =). I find that my daughter has a harder time controlling her self when she hungry or tired too. When she starts having a fit(hitting/yelling) and we're home I make her go to a separate room until she can calm down. I know that you said that you physically can't move your daughter, so maybe try moving everyone else? Get creative on ways to distance her from everyone else when she's having a fit. If she's doing this out in public and you can't get her to control herself, then she doesn't get to go. Period. Only take her to things that are absolutely necessary like school, church, Dr. appts. Tell her the reason, but don't negotiate it with her. I would actually get a sitter a couple of times and plan some fun things and make a big deal about her not going b/c she doesn't listen to you when you take her out. She sounds like a smart girl, so I think she'll catch on quickly that you mean business. For my daughter the more I can involve her in the decision the less drama there will be, we still have plenty, but it helps. Good luck to you.

I have a niece (sister in laws daughter) and a nephew (brothers son) that have anger issues and they both live with their single moms close to my home. So I often get called over to help. I do believe in positive discipline/rewards but sometimes you just have to lay down the law! You sound like you are doing a great job! And you sound consistent which is very important. Maybe it's time to try a little harsher punishment. Maybe take everything away and let her earn it back one by one with good behavior. My nephew was screaming and hitting his mother and saying awful things. I was called over and decided this was the last time I will hear about that! I took everything out of his room (literally) and left him with a sheet and a mattress. He had to earn EVERYTHING back one by one with good behavior. Even clothes. His outfits were preselected for school and if he didn't like what was chosen I explained that it was a result of his behavior and everything is a privilege. He was 10 when I did this. He is now 13 and I have not had to go back to his house since. Of course, they have arguments but the hitting and cussing at his mother stopped! It took him a couple weeks to get everything back but he finally earned it and all with good behavior and chores. I recommend making a poster/chart with your daughter first before going that route. Do it together, just her, you and dad and explain all the rules. Make a list of chores and then write the consequence of not doing them when they are supposed to be done and the reward if they are. Also, list the consequences of whining, hitting, bad behavior in public etc and instead of arguing over it, walk to the poster you made and point out the consequence. Make rewards for good behavior in public and possibly for a complete day of
good behavior. Also, if you can spend some one on one time with her like going to the movies, mall, whatever she likes to do maybe twice a month or once a month she will feel like she is getting the attention she clearly wants from you. This won't last forever. It just takes some time and hard work to figure out the best solution for your family. Good luck!

I have a son who is the same way - just this morning he would NOT get out of bed - until 7.25, we have to leave at 7.30, so he had no breakfast and no time to clean his teeth - did he care? - no, I also banned him from his video games for 2 days, his most feared punishment, even that would not get him out of bed - we have always had trouble with him, and he also is not ADHD, just naughty and defiant, that kind of personality. time out's work a little, and taking away privelidges works sometimes, but not when he really wants to be awkward.

the only 2 things that have worked for him - and I need to be more consistent with is tomato staking - or I call it being my shadow, when they don't leave your side, when your cooking, they are cooking, your cleaning, they are cleaning. is is tedious for you, but it resets them somehow
and chores - when he does a chore a day his behavior is better - don't ask me why, but it works for him when he is part of the workings of the household.

Spirited, what a term. Of course it is for lack of a better one. One of my girls (11 yrs) is the same way. Oh my gosh, she really pushes buttons--at home only. At open house for school last week a teacher told me she is shy. HUH? Who? Not her. I took her for counseling, which she hated and thought was a waste of time. Why does she have to go? A fight everynight. I cancelled any more appts because I equal it to an alcoholic that goes to AA to please the family but then out for a drink afterwards because there is nothing wrong with it. One thing that has worked, finding something she really enjoys and when things get out of hand, telling her to go do that for 10 minutes or whatever. I know, rewarding her for mishavior. But it has worked, at least enough to calm her down. She is punished the same at the others (11 yr old son and another 11 yr old girl who now thinks she can have teen attitude). I always get complimented on how she is very creative and so well behaved and helpful. Getting her to help out at home is a major challenge. Sometimes we ask nice like doing us a favor and she does but other times blows up. Other times we tell her to do x and no problems. We also have a 2 yr old and she has gotten agressive. She has at times said that we are making her ANGRY. Grrr. How on earth do you handle them? It is very challenging. My d likes to draw and likes to make her own comic books. She is very proud of them and I try to remind her about them. I also try to reward her for excellent behavior by getting art supplies. Sometimes having her sit quietly, by herself helps calm her down.
BTW, I did have her evaluated for ADHD when she was younger and both times was a negative, she does not fit the profile for it.

We have a spirited 4.5yo. They are tough, lots of the same problems you have. The funniest part was when you mentioned that she is sweet at school. Our kid is the same, everyone outside the house thinks he is an angel. He will play outside nicely for hours, and then explode within 30 seconds of getting home. Some say this is good, he feels comfortable enough at home to show us how he really feels. Personally, I hate it.
For us, there is no silver bullet when it comes to discipline. Things that help are:
- making sure he does not get too hungry/tired. Sometimes, he'll have dinner at 4:30. He tend to be at his worst when hungry or overtired. Of course, he never asks for food, or takes a nap.
- playing with kids his own age diffuses his intensity. We've moved to a neighborhood where kids play outside a lot, and this helps immensely. He spends 20+ hours a week playing with them, before and after dinner, on weekends, and he is happy.
- predictability: briefing at the beginning of the day, debriefing at night. "We are going to a toy store to buy your friend a bday present, and you are not getting anything"...

Punishments have tended to backfire badly. Sometimes, timeouts help him calm down. Threat of witholding dessert also works. He understands that TV comes in tiny doses, and will work hard to get it. When he gets totally out of control around his little brother, physical restraint is necessary, and it usually makes everyone sad in the end.

I also agree with what Dawi has to say. You might want to check out the work of Heather Forbes. Heather has written books and leactured around the country on meeting challenging kids with love and respect. She has an online conference for moms. For all the details on Heather's - "Every day is Mother's Day Online Conference"-go to http://www.beyondconsequences.com/momsconference/eg/

Her home is her safest haven probably why she acts up there and not anywhere else.

There could be a myriad of reasons why she acts the way she does. You may love her to death yet in your frustration project disapproval. In her tiny little head you just don't care and her little heart is breaking. She starts acting out more... you yell (not sure if you do) / punish more and in her logic this may equate to proof of what she thought was (that you just don't care). It doesn't make real sense to us but to the kids it can be so real.

You have 2 younger children. Chances are you devout your attention more to them as the 8 year old in all meaning is self sufficient. Again adults get this most kids don't. To them it may mean that they are least favored. I have children and when my youngest was born my then 20 month old was devastated. What I did and what worked for us was referred to the baby as my eldest's and she has since been Billy's Rory.

Here is my suggestion. Do something regular that is just you and her. Something for her to look forward to. This time should not be dictated by behavior. I take my Billy to breakfast every Thursday before school. She had to wake up extra early but it was great for her and me. It makes her feel super special and a child who feels special and loved beyond measure tend to be a more positive child.

I have seen kids "get caught up" in their tantrum. I was that kid once. They key is to not get her there. I am curious to know what triggers her fits and wonder if it has something that you can work on with her.